In my opinion, this section of reading has, thus far, been
the most revealing in regard to the past of Gilead and of Offred as an
individual. Personally, I found it extremely interesting that the author
included an aspect of further regret in the Commander, indicated through his
acceptance of the dissatisfaction centralized around the new society of Gilead
at the end of chapter 32. I believe that this interaction between the Commander
and Offred provides a lot of information about the two, their relationship, and
their personalized social standards. Another thing that I noticed was the role
of the prayvganza as a forged act of communion amongst women; specifically, I
found it interesting how the heavily the suppression of handmaids is emphasized
whilst they are, truly, considered pivotal members of society. What were your
thoughts regarding the prayvaganza? Additionally, I found it extremely
interesting how this section has been used to display and explain much
information from Offred’s past while simultaneously revealing new information
about Offred’s supposedly lost family – for instances: the photo of her
daughter, discovering Moira at the makeshift brothel, and hearing about her
mother in the Colonies. Overall, though, I believe that this section of reading
is beginning to enlighten many of our previous concerns.
Firstly, though we’ve discussed this theme various times
before, I think we should again touch upon the social interactions of women in
the novel, given many recent progressions. It seems as though the women
entirely judge each other and think of others as lesser – whether based upon
social standards or personal preferences – in order to comfort themselves in
such a harsh society. I found it entirely disheartening how Offred seemed to
find comfort and solace through a communality of using the bathroom. In my
opinion, this exemplifies the utter barbarism of the novel’s setting. What did
you all think about this scene? Additionally, how did it change or polarize
your previous feelings regarding the novel’s social standards?
Additionally, I think we should discuss the recent
progressions within the relationship between Offred and the Commander. Towards
the end of the last section of reading, we seemed to begin seeing the Commander
in a new light: one of kindness and acceptance – though forged through a
previous guilt. However, during our most recent reading, he seems to have
reverted to his old ways of life, having become more flirtatious with Offred
and going so far as to take her to a club filled with local prostitutes. What
did this interaction between Offred and the Commander tell you about their
relationship? Do these differ from your thoughts after the last section of
reading? Additionally, how do you think this interaction may affect the way in which
Offred planned to manipulate the past guilt of the Commander?
Finally, I think that we should discuss Moira – both her
past life and the new one that she had been forced into following her capture.
Offred previously had idolized Moira as a sort of new-age martyr; though Moira
had exemplified and indirectly preached of societal freedoms rather than
religious preferences. How do you think Offred perception of Moira has changed
given her recent discoveries? Do you think that she thinks of Moira in a more
negative, a more positive, or a neutral sense now? Why do you feel this way?
We’re almost done with the novel and, personally, I’m very
excited to see where the plot will progress. I think that there are currently
many unanswered questions and concerns. Hopefully, these will be answered and
resolved during our last section of reading!
I think that the bathroom has become a safe haven for Offred. It is a place where she can communicate to her past life. We saw this when she initially met with Moira in the bathroom at the Center. Now, she and Moira are doing it again at the brothel. It is the only place that they can go and be entirely alone. It puts a lot of emphasis on that point. Offred is nervous that they are being watched or heard in the bathroom. Even in a place that should be so private she is in fear. It makes me realize even more how messed up this society is. Offred should have had no reason to be nervous about being watched while she was in the bathroom.
ReplyDeleteThis interaction showed that the Commander takes their relationship very casually, according to his societal standards. He had no problem taking Offred to a brothel where he seems to frequent, as evidenced by Moira saying that she recognized him. At the same time, it shows that he cares for her on some level. When they were there, he only wanted to be with her, and wanted Offred to be with only him. Also, he bought her the new outfit, which, although seemed strange, was a way for him to express his love. He said the women used to have so many clothes so that their men would not get sick of the same person and leave them. The fact that he wanted to see Offred as a different person so that he wouldn't be so tempted to leave her shows that he has feelings for her. He wants to keep his interest in Offred.
I don't think that Offred has any feelings about Moira anymore. Although she does not believe in it, Offred follows almost every single rule and hardly steps out of line. Moira does the exact opposite. After hearing about Moira's adventure and how she got where she was, Offred was indifferent. She was impressed by her adventure, but did not envy her. She no longer wished that she had the bravery that Moira had to escape from the center. When she said that was the last time she ever saw Moira, she said it without emotion. She never knew what happened to Moira after their last meeting, and she didn't seem to care.
Initially, I hadn't considered the bathroom to be a safe haven of sorts, though now that makes perfect sense, Meghan. I found it interesting how you were able to pinpoint connections between the two women at the Center and at the brothel; overall, I think that this shows the commonalities amongst female interaction in the novel's society under various circumstances. Additionally, I think your interpretation of the Commander's relationship with Offred is extremely interesting and analytical! I never considered the possibility that a simple act of taking Offred out - even to a place like a brothel - displays a complete new level of care and interaction between the two, based upon personalized interests. What do you think about the Commander's past guilt? Do you think that this new interaction with Offred may have alleviated some of this? Additionally, I can see how you believe that Moira has no feelings about Moira anymore, but I think that now she feels much more negatively towards her. Moira used to be her idol and almost a deity of sorts, to Offred; now, however, she is simply another person who got caught. She, now, is considered no better than Offred and Luke - who, too, were captured whilst trying to escape.
DeleteI think that every interaction that they have alleviates some of the guilt that the Commander has. He could be attempting to have a relationship with Offred because he had none with the past handmaid. every time that thy get together at night or go out somewhere could be a way for the Commander to forget the guilt of the past handmaid.
DeleteI can see your point; it does appear as though each interaction between the handmaid and the Commander eliminates some of his previous guilt. I think that this may relate to the idea that all women - specifically, all handmaids - are seen as one collective group. In the commander's eyes, it may seem as though he is directly making amends with all of his previous handmaids.
DeleteI like your observation about how the bathroom is a safe place in Offred's mind. I agree with that. I also thought that in a way, it reflects society today and how women always meet in bathrooms to gossip together.
DeleteThat's a really good connection, Kristen! I hadn't considered that parallel but it makes a lot of sense. It definitely shows a reflection of our modern society in the novel.
DeleteHi Meghan, I think you made really good points about the connections between the women in the brothel and the Center. Furthermore I hadn’t considered that by taking her out he was showing her kindness beyond what was required to keep her interested in him. I disagree about your point about Moira although I understand your reasoning. I think that because Moira is her last true friend from the past Offred would never really be able to just give up any feelings towards her.
DeleteHi Kristen, I agree with Tyler, your observation about today’s society and women in the bathroom was spot on.
DeleteMeghan, I agree completely with your ideas about the bathroom. A bathroom is a safe haven for anyone, where they know they are in private. However, the intricacies and issues of this society take all privacy away from all women. It is sad to think of a time where you can't even be alone with yourself.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with your ideas regarding the Commander's feelings toward Offred. He shows that he cares about her simply by implying he does not want to become bored of her and leave. I am starting to see this relationship blossom out of a friendship and possibly into something more.
I think the lack of connection between Moira and Offred is representative of their lives that are so different. Offred is now a part of this new society as Moira continues to neglect it. Moira is still presented by her real name, and we really only see Offred as "Of Fred", a transition completely into this society. I agree with you Meghan, and also believe that Offred is more accepting of her role than she previously was.
I definitely agree that society strips away all privacy of women, Kristen. It seems as though society sees these individuals as a collective group, and therefore sees no issues involved in the intrusion of these people. Additionally, I think that there is definitely a makeshift friendship developing between Offred and the Commander, though I don't think I could see it further progressing into a relationship, since I believe that Offred still holds some aggression against the Commander for his past actions. I think it's really interesting how you were able to use the idea of the novel's nomenclature that we previously discussed as support for your ideas, Kristen; good connection between different sections!
DeleteI agree with you, Kristen, that their relationship could turn into something more. Offred seems to be loosening up and warming up to him every time that we see them together. Taking her out was the next step in their relationship. We will start to see them grow more and more.
DeleteI think that the Commander would like the relationship to progress into something more maybe, however I feel that Offred does not. She definitely does seem more accepting and comfortable with her place in society, although she still do not like it. I also think she realizes that a relationship with the Commander could cause a slight shift in society and the social class thing they've got going on. This could cause serious problems for her and she is one to stick to the rule and remain under the radar.
DeleteI agree, Kristen; I think that she may understand the great severities that may result from her relationship with the Commander. That, in my opinion, may be why Offred seems so distant during all of her time with the Commander. Specifically, I think that this resonated during the scene in the hotel in which Offred had to continuously remind herself to display a sense of happiness and pleasure, even though she personally felt miserable.
DeleteKristen, I think your observation about Moira and Offred’s relationship makes a lot of sense. But I think Moira is more accepting of the new society as a whole while Offred merely accepts her personal role. Evidence of this is Offred’s willingness to become part of the Mayday group while Moira is content to be a prostitute.
DeleteThank you Tyler! I can see what you mean about Offred holding aggression against the Commander's past, but I think that this acceptance of her place is also reflected in this "friendship". Realistically, I don't think it is possible for the two to have real romantic feelings toward each other, but I feel as though that is what the Commander is trying to do. Offred may or may not give in due to loneliness, and they may or may not have a secret romantic relationship. Or of course it could amount to nothing and they just remain as friends.
ReplyDeleteI definitely can see how her personal acceptance of society is reflected in her friendship with the Commander; it's almost as though she is making friends with her direct enemy. Additionally, I agree that the Commander may be trying to form a romantic relationship with Offred since he has never been able to have one with Serena Joy since she is so miserable and distant, typically.
DeleteI have a question that I have been thinking about for a long time throughout the reading. It does not just pertain to these chapters, but the novel as a whole. When the initial transition from old to new society happened, how do you think they choose which women got which role? How was it determined who was a Wife, handmaid, or Martha? Also, how was it determined if you were a commander or a person lower ranked, like Nick?
ReplyDeleteI think that the role of upper-level males was determined through the direct and, inadvertently, the indirect actions of each of the men. For instance, the Commander most likely played a great role in the formation of the new society and, therefore, was given the opportunity to have a higher class position. In contrast, I think that other individual males, such as Nick, may have been assigned a societal role based upon their previous status or wealth level. However, I'm unsure as to any possibilities of how the Wives, handmaids, and Marthas were assigned social positions. It could have been based upon their previous ideologies and how well these ideas coincided with the new ideals of Gilead. For instance, in the last section of reading, we learned about the conversion of Catholic women during prayvaganzas and discover that they would be forced to live as handmaids. This, to me, indicates that they are being punished for their previous lives. Ultimately, though, I can't think of any definite answer regarding the assignment of female roles. Good question, though, Meghan!
DeleteI like Tyler's idea and the direction it is headed. I also think that women's social standings had to do with which they received. Maybe even careers could have been a factor. For example, chefs could have been made into Marthas. Also, since the handmaids have to bear children, maybe they assigned younger girls this role and left older and wealthy women to be Wives.
DeleteThat's a really good point that I hadn't considered, Kristen. I think that age and past experiences definitely could've played a role in the social determination of Gilead.
DeleteI think the bathroom scene with Moira showed Offred and us that evidence of the old ways can be found everywhere. Brothels and strip clubs were active and prominent in the past society and I think the reemergence of one show that regardless of the strict and cruel rules put in place, the new government still hasn’t been able to destroy the very things it set out to. I think it just serves to further emphasize the double- standards women are forced to live with in this society.
ReplyDeleteIt showed me that Offred is nothing more than a possession to the Commander no matter how much they try to deny it. After the last section of reading he appeared to be considerate and caring but after this one he seems no better than any of the other hypocritical men at the club. I think it will force her to acknowledge the sexual side of their relationship as the Commander continues to show more interest in her. However, she should still be able to use the guilt to her advantage.
I think Offred had raised Moira on a shining pedestal. In her mind Moira had accomplished everything that Offred herself so desperately want. I think she was forced to view Moira as the human that she is and abandon the superhero she had created. This would lead to her thinking a little bit worse of Moira but because she is the only friend Offred has I don’t believe she could ever hate her.